When Clients Go Bad / Dealing with Unhappy Customers
Photo Moment - February 09, 2017
Sometimes shooting for a client doesn't quite turn out as expected and the relationship sours. Here's a story, and some advice on what to do and not to do!
VIDEOS MENTIONED IN TODAY'S PHOTO MOMENT:
Studio Portrait Setup for Large Group: https://youtu.be/mHYN2Ktw8lU
I think when people have no idea, there is only so much you can try to explain to them about the process. Beyond that it is a waste of energy and YOUR time. They took up your time, equipment, studio, expertise and they don't want to pay? Thats low... people should always pay others for their work, even if its not what they expected.
I think it was handled very well... but since you asked for my opinion....So I gave some thought into the second shoot thing. What if you gave him a discount (30% 40% whatever) on both. That way your not hanging in the air on deal #2 to make it right. If the second never happens then things were already square. You get paid and feel good about the client being content that they were handled professionally, and now you have the knowledge of what they actually want. It always nice to be done with problematic customers.... but better to be done at your highest standard.
Good suggestion but my policy is to make the customer happy. It's worked out well in the long run ;-)
Would it have been possible to shrink the big guy a little with "Liquify" in Photoshop? I know my wife is always asking me to do that with snapshots of people I shoot on our trips to Africa. I've never had one notice and say anything. Of course I try to keep it subtle. What kind of photography do you do for your customers?
+John Packard N'ah… it wasn't worth the effort. I'm sure he knows how he looks. Dad wasn't too happy though. I do portraits and commercial work mostly.
Hmm...
You asked for 'how would you handle it?'
Here's my take... I'm a full-time musician and play around 3 gigs a week and perhaps 2 studio sessions a month. Shit happens - sometimes no matter what. On the rare occasion that it does, I've found the single-most-important-thing-to-focus-on, is this....
Do NOT let it shake your confidence. That's how to handle it: for the sake of the many hundreds of hours you spent developing your skills to this point - for the sake of your existing clients and the sake of future ones too.
I've seen (too often) that a just a single bad gig can destroy someones confidence to the degree that they 'choke' on future gigs for literally months - sometimes even years.
You asked for 'how would you handle it?'
Here's my take... I'm a full-time musician and play around 3 gigs a week and perhaps 2 studio sessions a month. Shit happens - sometimes no matter what. On the rare occasion that it does, I've found the single-most-important-thing-to-focus-on, is this....
Do NOT let it shake your confidence. That's how to handle it: for the sake of the many hundreds of hours you spent developing your skills to this point - for the sake of your existing clients and the sake of future ones too.
I've seen (too often) that a just a single bad gig can destroy someones confidence to the degree that they 'choke' on future gigs for literally months - sometimes even years.
+Sonja van Hoorebecke True!
Joseph, several years ago you took pictures of me and my extended family. We really enjoyed our experience and you went above and beyond to make our experience great! I do know that your town is rather small and this older man has probably lived there for awhile. You might consider having this client and your photographer friend back to your studio so that this man can fully explain what he wants out of the follow up photo shoot and you could also walk him through coming up with an idea board. He might even like seeing the pictures from the first photo shoot on your big screen with vignettes applied, etc. I know this sounds very overboard and I am not a photographer, but I also would not wish for this man to spread negative reviews in such a small town. Just a thought ☺️! I sure have enjoyed your videos over these last many years!
Hi Deborah, nice to hear from you again! That's a nice suggestion but a bit too far above and beyond. If the client was super nice about things I'd consider going farther but nice can go both ways, but it's largely been a one-way street :-) If your family would like more portraits though, let me know!
well, i can assure you age and what happens to the Human Brain at "80" years old is a Major! factor when it comes to "Moods" and perception of reality. particularly with this gentleman. Although, most clients "That Go Bad" usually are NOT in the pre Alzheimer's stage.
And yes, we all have and will go through this very uncomfortable situation. And the only thing that makes it uncomfortable really! is, We actually care about the happiness of the client, and of course our bruised Ego.
i produce only creative content video, And yes, Been there, Done That. it AIN'T fun.
Thanx For Sharing.
And yes, we all have and will go through this very uncomfortable situation. And the only thing that makes it uncomfortable really! is, We actually care about the happiness of the client, and of course our bruised Ego.
i produce only creative content video, And yes, Been there, Done That. it AIN'T fun.
Thanx For Sharing.
i wouldn't have given him any money back. And I would not shoot for him anymore... I people in your town already know your work, you shouldn't have any problems...
+Bobby Washington No matter how small the town you can't already know everybody. I tend to err on the side of caution. Thanks for sharing your view though!
sounds like the guy who just wanted to be difficult for the sake of being difficult. I bet you are not the only person that client has issues with in life.
+Gotta go That's for sure (the second part). You never know with difficult people… is it just his personality? Is he having a bad month? Are there issues completely unrelated that are affecting it? You never know. Smile and nod. Smile and nod.
Hi Joseph, I got to watch live today and I felt for you going through this. I worked at a spa in my younger days and the hardest clients to take on were the ones that came from another esthetician. They had the expectation that you would be exactly like the other person. Sounds a bit like what happened here. It sucks to have this experience but if it bothers you it usually means you care, at least that's what we tell the kids. And it sounds like you tried to make it right by them. My only advice, if they ever contact you again for photos plan a quick trip to Antarctica. Lol. But seriously, unfortunately, you ran into someone that you didn't mesh with, it happens to all of us. Gotta look at the positives. Thanks for the videos.
+Jess Smith very nice, thanks 🙏
Hi Joseph, listening to your side of the story, I think you did mostly everything right. But I like to be as objective as possible in all situation as opposed to just siding with a friend -- in this case, I know you more than the other patriarch so you're the friend. I think it would have been prudent for you to proactively ask more questions in the beginning as to what he wanted from the shoot. It might have been wise to ask him what he liked or disliked about the previous photo(s). This whole story made the patriarch sound highly unreasonable. Working in any customer facing industry will eventually lead you to encounter some unreasonable people but from your story, he just sounds so unreasonable. It's almost unbelievable how unreasonable he conducted himself. He doesn't tell you what he wants. He doesn't object at the time of the shooting when given a chance to see the photos you've taken. He objects 1 month after the shot was done. I don't see how any reasonable person would act this way. I think the lesson learned for the future -- well besides the fact that you're smart not to do much portraiture to begin with -- is to ask lots of questions in the beginning as to what the client wants from the shoot and then during the shoot to confirm several times if they're happy with the results.
Joseph Linaschke
Guyz, Your NOT getting! it. it doesn't matter how many questions you ask a client like that, some clients you just cannot satisfy or make Happy no matter what! you do, they are not happy people.
Also keep in mind during this shoot he asked if everyone was happy with what they were seeing, and everyone including a client said absolutely yes.
like it or not AGE was a factor in "that" client's final perception.
Guyz, Your NOT getting! it. it doesn't matter how many questions you ask a client like that, some clients you just cannot satisfy or make Happy no matter what! you do, they are not happy people.
Also keep in mind during this shoot he asked if everyone was happy with what they were seeing, and everyone including a client said absolutely yes.
like it or not AGE was a factor in "that" client's final perception.
yup. if you've already established yourself enough to not have to do "simple portrait" sessions to survive anymore, then you focus on your premium "experiential portraiture" sessions. ;-)
I originally wanted to do high end fashion photography when I went to photo school. I didn't want to deal with consumer portraiture or wedding photography for the very subject discussed in this video. :-) But I never ended up doing photography as a profession anyhow. If you can make a living doing photography in this digital age when it seems everyone has an Instagram account, more power to you. ;-)
I originally wanted to do high end fashion photography when I went to photo school. I didn't want to deal with consumer portraiture or wedding photography for the very subject discussed in this video. :-) But I never ended up doing photography as a profession anyhow. If you can make a living doing photography in this digital age when it seems everyone has an Instagram account, more power to you. ;-)
Thanks Lance, and I did talk to him quite a bit beforehand, explaining what we could and would do in the studio. However I really like one thing you added — "It might have been wise to ask him what he liked or disliked about the previous photo(s)". That's really good. I typically ask portrait clients to build a mood board using Pinterest, but since he showed me the previous photo and had no issues with it (other than the non-smiling child), started with the suggestion of shooting in front of a barren hill and dead tree, and seemed to like the idea of coming to the studio, I didn't ask. I thought I had a clear vision of what he wanted. And, asking an 80 year old man to build a mood board on Pinterest is silly. After all, he wanted his images delivered on six CDs (!!). Tech ain't his thing.
Lesson learned. Asking more questions up front is good advice for sure. And I think I'll stop doing these simple portrait sessions all together. I have a much larger, more expensive package that I offer called "experiential portraiture" which can last all day, and I'm just going to do that or nothing. Small portrait jobs are too much like hard work.
Lesson learned. Asking more questions up front is good advice for sure. And I think I'll stop doing these simple portrait sessions all together. I have a much larger, more expensive package that I offer called "experiential portraiture" which can last all day, and I'm just going to do that or nothing. Small portrait jobs are too much like hard work.
NOT trying to be nasty... I AM NOT NASTY PERSON ...but here might be your answer to your problems with this people...What did you use for that photo shoot? Did you go with a PANASONIC dslr? Or with the proper stuff like Canon or Nikon...More than often people would look at those things and judge you even when your a fab photographer.
"Not everyone is educated not everyone know what's what." — true, but we can educate them.
"They look at how you talk how you move what gear you have they don't really care about the photo quality ( to some extent)" — then those are the wrong clients. I'd never work for someone who cared more about the gear than the result. That's just… insane. Someone like that you do NOT want as a client!
"everyday people do NOT have the know-how of the big corporations you been working for" — I pointed out that my clients range from individuals to big companies. Again, it's never ever been a problem. In fact, only once did I bring it up, and this was when I still shot Canon, but was shooting a portrait client with a Leica Monochrom. That's a small camera. At some point I said "just so you know, this isn't a toy, but a very high end camera blah blah". Client looked at me and said "I don't give a shit what you shoot with". That was the first and last time I brought it up.
"They look at how you talk how you move what gear you have they don't really care about the photo quality ( to some extent)" — then those are the wrong clients. I'd never work for someone who cared more about the gear than the result. That's just… insane. Someone like that you do NOT want as a client!
"everyday people do NOT have the know-how of the big corporations you been working for" — I pointed out that my clients range from individuals to big companies. Again, it's never ever been a problem. In fact, only once did I bring it up, and this was when I still shot Canon, but was shooting a portrait client with a Leica Monochrom. That's a small camera. At some point I said "just so you know, this isn't a toy, but a very high end camera blah blah". Client looked at me and said "I don't give a shit what you shoot with". That was the first and last time I brought it up.
I fully understand you but you have to understand the costumers as well. Not everyone is educated not everyone know what's what...They look at how you talk how you move what gear you have they don't really care about the photo quality ( to some extent) . They look at your huge camera and say YES he must be a professional or they look at your little camera and they get nervous about it. I was only trying to give you an explanation of why those people MIGHT turn funny against you. I don't flipping care what gear people use to be honest but everyday people do NOT have the know-how of the big corporations you been working for . If Micro 4/3 is your thing and feel comfortable in using? Well that's fine. And like you said maybe in US micro 4/3 for users are more popular not in the UK though or I haven't seen one yet and I am in this business for a few years.
Thanks for not taking it harshly ;-) You are more polite than me and I appreciate that.
OK, so I stand corrected… the customer is NOT always right! ;-)
I look at it this way, and this is the experience I've had. Clients come to me pre-sold, or at minimum are sold long before I start shooting. That's actually, now that I think of it, part of the problem here. This client didn't preview me before they hired me. They hired me on the recommendation of someone with a different shooting style, and expected the same from me. But to your point, I have worked with tiny companies and individuals to the largest companies in the world, and none of them ever cared what I shot on. They've seen my work, they know what I produce, and don't ever question the gear.
Also I know a few wedding photographers who shoot M43 so it is happening. I know that's hard because you end up with the father of the bride carrying around a bazooka of a camera and wondering what your "problem" is, but I've shot weddings on mirrorless (it's not my thing; these were for friends or family) and you know what everyone likes about it? SILENT. I can shoot and be invisible instead of sounding like a machine gun in a church.
If a client ever questioned it, I'd probably tell them that I'm shooting with a Ferrari, while the Canon guy is shooting with a minivan. Bigger is definitely not always better ;-)
OK, so I stand corrected… the customer is NOT always right! ;-)
I look at it this way, and this is the experience I've had. Clients come to me pre-sold, or at minimum are sold long before I start shooting. That's actually, now that I think of it, part of the problem here. This client didn't preview me before they hired me. They hired me on the recommendation of someone with a different shooting style, and expected the same from me. But to your point, I have worked with tiny companies and individuals to the largest companies in the world, and none of them ever cared what I shot on. They've seen my work, they know what I produce, and don't ever question the gear.
Also I know a few wedding photographers who shoot M43 so it is happening. I know that's hard because you end up with the father of the bride carrying around a bazooka of a camera and wondering what your "problem" is, but I've shot weddings on mirrorless (it's not my thing; these were for friends or family) and you know what everyone likes about it? SILENT. I can shoot and be invisible instead of sounding like a machine gun in a church.
If a client ever questioned it, I'd probably tell them that I'm shooting with a Ferrari, while the Canon guy is shooting with a minivan. Bigger is definitely not always better ;-)
NO...you haven't been too harsh but in the same time your wrong.
1. You said ALWAYS costumers are right...SO...if they see you with a little Panasonic camera in your hand they might judge you because you know COSTUMERS ARE ALWAYS RIGHT...RIGHT?
2. Size ALWAYS matters,,,,They don't know how good you are the only look at what you have in your hands, They DON'T have the knowledge that you have and to THEM or most of THEM proper means CANON and NIKON ( I am a working professional as well not at your extent but know enough not to be pushed around) and I do agree with THEM.
3. I am from England and I NEVER EVER seen a weeding photographed with a Micro 4/3 . ( Honestly if you would come at my wedding with that I would give the deposit back and send you home) and get my iphone out.( I will keep you informed if I ever see some important event or a wedding photographed on a Micro 4/3, Video is different ball game.
4. I started like that since I knew you would take it personally. I love your expertise and i am quite sure quite brilliant in your job. I am sure in the states and Canada photographers moving in flock from Full frame to Panasonic but not over here in photography that is. Kind Regards.
1. You said ALWAYS costumers are right...SO...if they see you with a little Panasonic camera in your hand they might judge you because you know COSTUMERS ARE ALWAYS RIGHT...RIGHT?
2. Size ALWAYS matters,,,,They don't know how good you are the only look at what you have in your hands, They DON'T have the knowledge that you have and to THEM or most of THEM proper means CANON and NIKON ( I am a working professional as well not at your extent but know enough not to be pushed around) and I do agree with THEM.
3. I am from England and I NEVER EVER seen a weeding photographed with a Micro 4/3 . ( Honestly if you would come at my wedding with that I would give the deposit back and send you home) and get my iphone out.( I will keep you informed if I ever see some important event or a wedding photographed on a Micro 4/3, Video is different ball game.
4. I started like that since I knew you would take it personally. I love your expertise and i am quite sure quite brilliant in your job. I am sure in the states and Canada photographers moving in flock from Full frame to Panasonic but not over here in photography that is. Kind Regards.
I like how you preface this :-) And I'll pretend you didn't say "proper stuff like Canon or Nikon" because that's like saying the only proper cars are gas engine cars and electric cars aren't real. It's an outdated, silly and uneducated perspective. But how's this…
a) I've never been judged on the gear I use, only on the images I produce.
b) I'm shooting in a large studio with a ton of gear; the camera in my hands is one small piece of it.
c) Saying "more than often people would look at these and judge…" is just ignorant. I'm a working professional photographer and filmmaker and the only stories I hear like this come from places like YouTube. I've never once heard a real-life first-hand story of this happening.
d) The photographer who shot the images he liked better also shoots on mirrorless
c) Anyone who judges your work by the gear you shoot with is an idiot. You would never judge a mechanic by their tools, a cook by their stove, a painter by their brushes.
Hope I haven't been too harsh in the comment and I get that this is your perspective, but if you genuinely feel that this is a possibility, then either you need smarter clients or to be exposed to more than the so-called "proper" cameras from Canon and Nikon.
a) I've never been judged on the gear I use, only on the images I produce.
b) I'm shooting in a large studio with a ton of gear; the camera in my hands is one small piece of it.
c) Saying "more than often people would look at these and judge…" is just ignorant. I'm a working professional photographer and filmmaker and the only stories I hear like this come from places like YouTube. I've never once heard a real-life first-hand story of this happening.
d) The photographer who shot the images he liked better also shoots on mirrorless
c) Anyone who judges your work by the gear you shoot with is an idiot. You would never judge a mechanic by their tools, a cook by their stove, a painter by their brushes.
Hope I haven't been too harsh in the comment and I get that this is your perspective, but if you genuinely feel that this is a possibility, then either you need smarter clients or to be exposed to more than the so-called "proper" cameras from Canon and Nikon.
I can tell its still RAW with you. IMO I think you did the right thing. (and trust me if I didn't I would say!!!) And I bet it grates that you have to now almost suck up to client to make sure your reputation doesn't get trashed across town. But TBO I don't think you need to worry that much. But yes politeness is the way to go. What did the other photographer have to say? Have you spoken to him and showed him photos?
Oh and............Does your client watch youtube!!!! :-)
Oh and............Does your client watch youtube!!!! :-)
Haha I seriously doubts he watches YouTube and if he does, c'est la vie. I didn't name him, or the other photographer. And yes I did show my photos to the other photographer. He agrees with me.
Missed the live stream. Thanks Joseph! Doesn't sound like you did anything wrong. Perhaps an option to avoid something like this is have an assistant to take other photos that are specifically different to what your brief was. Granted though that this is something that only someone established would be able to do. Newbie photographers can't exactly hire an assistant.
It's not just about taking different photos… we could do different setups, different light, different angles, etc., but I know what the client meant after seeing the previous photos and that simply isn't something that is going to happen in a shoot environment like this, with all your family standing around making jokes and being, well, family! The intimacy of their original photos — I can guarantee they wouldn't be that comfortable if their kids and grandkids were right there.
this is a very useful video! Trying to have the right "polite" attitude to the clients will always pay off on the long run.
Thanks, and yeah I agree. Politeness goes a long way, even if you have to grit your teeth to do it ;-)
I missed the live stream but this video is awesome!
Good idea Yash, I'll keep it in mind!
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