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GH5 Bit Depth Difference Electronic Vs Mechanical Shutter?

Photo Moment - March 01, 2017

Is there a bit depth difference when using electronic or mechanical shutter on LUMIX cameras, specifically on the new GH5?

 

There are reports online that LUMIX cameras shoot at 12-bit when shooting mechanical shutter, but drop to 10-bit for electronic. Is that true? 

PRODUCTS MENTIONED IN TODAY'S PHOTO MOMENT (MANY ARE AFFILIATE LINKS):
Panasonic LUMIX GH5 [B&H - https://bhpho.to/2kQ9LT3 ] [Amazon - http://amzn.to/2lE4X1U ] [Adorama - http://jal.bz/2lNYpQv ]
Panasonic LUMIX GX8 [B&H - https://bhpho.to/2mla7A1 ] [Amazon - http://amzn.to/2lhTKmK ] [Adorama - http://jal.bz/2kUJQLR ]

VIDEOS MENTIONED IN TODAY'S PHOTO MOMENT:
Electronic Shutter and Mechanical Shutter — https://youtu.be/N9_wsdE1hwI

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I think this link explains global shutter pretty well: http://www.digitalbolex.com/global-shutter/ One solution exists for a long time (1969 to be exact): It's called CCD. People might remember older video cameras of the mini DV / Digital8 era that usually had those. Nowadays you find them mostly in surveillance cameras and such. Problem is: The readout time of higher resolution CCDs (10+ MP) is super slow to prevent temperature problems. So those are mostly used for astronomy. A Camera that can't take another picture for ~ 30 seconds after one shot wouldn't be so great.
Problem in general is bandwidth. You simply cannot read out the complete sensor at once. You can do it faster and faster (and at one point you are fast enough that rolling shutter poses no problem in normally occurring situations anymore) but a whole sensor at once is nearly impossible. What basically would be needed is a memory cell directly attached to the sensor - one for every pixel - that constantly collects what the sensor is picking up for a specified exposure time. This "collection"-mode must be able to be switched on and off instantaneously - this would be our shutter. After the exposure is finished the memory cells then can be read out line by line. And all that without producing too much temperature...(while also having to deal with a thicker sensor that will handle heat much worse) So something similar to a CCD.
Once the Megapixel wars finally stop we can maybe measurably speed up readout times. But up until then each advance in read out speed is instantly eaten up by more Megapixels. Since full frame is already at 50+ Megapixels I fear this war will continue for quite some time. This readout speed will also be the reason for the 10bit/12bit problem this video was actually about that was finally solved with the GX8. Before the GX-8 rolling shutter probably would have been atrocious with 12bit (readout time is obviously about 20% slower with 12bit compared to 10bit - that's something you WILL be able to see).
I haven't been able to find information about why this is or if its the case for all global shutter cameras right now, but cameras like the Blackmagic Ursa/Ursa Mini and Canon C700 come in both rolling and global shutter versions (Ursa mini has rolling shutter and the Ursa has global shutter) and from what I have read, the rolling shutters can give a bit more dynamic range that global shutter can and and possibly a bit less noise. Its mentioned here: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/video/tips-and-solutions/rolling-shutter-versus-global-shutter

"On that note, why have a rolling shutter at all? Implementing it, in most cases, seems to only bring doom and gloom to your images over the older global shutter design of CCDs, right? Not so fast. Like basically everything that exists in this world through manufacture, the name of the game is compromise. Generally speaking, if you were to compare two equivalent sensors strictly on performance, one with a global shutter and the other with a rolling shutter, you will likely see that the rolling-shutter sensor will have less noise and a wider dynamic range while generating less heat".
Also I need to add that the problem with electronic shutter being used all the time is many light sources flicker (usually imperceptibly to the human eye) but that flicker shows up as stripes in video. That was the disadvantage I was trying to remember.
FANTASTIC info, thank you for sharing! I'm pinning this to the top…
just made an experiment. In a GH5 choose Raw photos max res and shot on E.S. the ending result windows properties shows is 1920*1440px (4/3 aspect) while jpg at max res on E.S. are 5184*3888 (4/3 aspect). im so confused. i even checked previous raw timelapses i made and efectively are 1920x1080 raw photos.
Can GH5 shot raw 6k?
Windows properties is reading the embedded JPEG, not the actual RAW file. Open it in an actual RAW editor like Lightroom and you'll see the full resolution photo.
Can i take Flash Photos with an electronic shutter?
Generally, no. Some cameras do but in a limited fashion. Once cameras have global shutters (you can google that), this will no longer be an issue, but I think we’re a few years away from that still.
Interesting because my e shutter shots on my GH5 appear slightly noisier when processed and not as clean as using m shutter.
Joseph, did you find out the question you talk about on 13:02? - it just makes no sense to me right now and I REALLY REALLY want to know why it's happening.
When the camera is set to use electronic shutter the sensor scans line by line, so the diference with the mechanical shutter is how the sensor scans? can't the sensor do the same type of scan he does in the mechanical shutter mode but without the need of the "curtain" going up and down?
+Hugo I think it’s because the whole sensor can’t turn on and off quickly enough. Sensors that do are called “global shutter”.
Shutter "shock" was never a problem with the old film cameras, so why should it be a problem with digital cameras?
Cameras are lighter, so the tiny impact has less mass to push around. And pixel peepers have gotten even more neurotic about this sort of "defect." ;)
My understanding is that this is NOT new. However with increased resolution and the ability to easily pixel peep, it's become more seen and understood. Digital is sharper than film and minor blur is more likely to be visible. Also heavier cameras could absorb the force of the shutter more; small, lightweight cameras don't do that so well. I did a quick search on it and found references to getting shutter shock on an old Nikon F camera! (I had to look this up because I think it's a great question… but it appears to not be a new issue). Thanks for asking!
Finally a decent explanation of electronic versus mechanical!
One other plus for electronic shutter is time lapse shooting. Since you don't need the mechanical shutter to accomplish this, you can save the wear and tear associated with thousands of shutter releases.
Red Reef Media that’s was my first thinking! So you think is 100% no brainer to shoot time lapses with ES? That shutter counting is the only thing that’s that’s bothering me every time I’m shooting a time lapse.
GH5 user
Quite true! Thanks for watching :-)
"All models after GX 8 have the same 12-bit depth in RAW files in both mechanical and electronic shutter"
Is that confirmed by Panasonic ? I read users reports and they claim that we only have 10-bit RAW files from GX80/85 in e/shutter :(( Shame that Panasonic did not publish anything about that !
sigh I got an answer but to the wrong question. I'm still trying… promise. What I said in this video is what I was told. But I'm trying to get further confirmation and having a hard time getting it.
Thanks for your video! I have the GX8 and G85- so both don't have the 10 bit limitation in electronic shutter mode? (I also have the GH3 but assume that does have the limitation)- Thanks for clarifying
Thank you
+justinspirational Correct on all counts
Regarding the aperture flicking open while taking pic with electronic shutter.
Pretty sure that's to aid autofocus right before shooting. (More light getting in easier focusing for contrast diff AF)
+biscuitsalive Hm, could be but it's already focused. Maybe for a final focus check? Curious.
The speedbooster "adds light" the same way a teleconverter "subtracts light" - by either growing or shrinking the image that comes out of the lens. Shrinking it concentrates the light so the image gets brighter/wider and growing the image spreads out the light so the image gets darker/more-tele. So rather than being greater than 1.0x ratio like a teleconverter, the speedbooster is lower than 1.0x
Also it depends on the image circle created by the lens if there will be vignetting or not. EF-S and DX lenses will work fine through a Metabones 0.71x or Aputure LensRegain 0.75x, but will have some amount of vignetting through the Metabones 0.64x model. However full-frame lenses will work fine on the 0.64x due to their larger image circle.
+wookieegoldberg Thanks! 🙏
regarding disadvantage of electronic shutter: yes, there is. when you hae to use it in a dark enviroment lit by LED lighting that are using a relatively low frequency. you'll get those stripes which are annoying because they simply can ruin you photo
I have this very problem only when taking photos using my sigma 18-35 with speed booster. Video mode never...only photo mode. Annoying
Just got another notice from Panasonic that I can expect delivery of GH5, 4 Apr 17.
The Panasonic rep allowed me to use my Metabones Speedbooster S on the GH5 during a hands on demo yesterday. I hooked it up to the Canon 24-105L and it worked a treat you guys. I haven't yet installed the latest AF firmware update to the Speedbooster itself, going to do that this weekend. But we spoke at length about how open Panasonic are to aid companies like Metabones. It is known that some Sigma and Tamron lenses have issues with the Speedbooster (particularly the XL), it is speculated that Metabones are currently working on this, and Panasonic have given them some info, so it will be interesting to see what happens. Camera was an absolute joy to use, the VLog and having the chance to shoot with a LUT preview is awesome!
+Robert Beasley Great news, thanks for sharing!
So what are the example of situation that I should shoot in mechanical shutter or electronic shutter? Performances wise
+Choy Wei De My default is to shoot mechanical unless I need quiet. Stripes from the lights is the problem I couldn't remember with shooting electronic. Lots of comments on that here; scroll through.
Great video Joseph. One correction to make though - the GX8 does in fact have a 12-bit e-shutter, and at least two of the Lumix cameras released after the GX8, the GX80/85 and the G85, both have a 10-bit e-shutter. I own the GX8 and had considered switching to the G85 due to the form factor and improved IBIS. In the end I decided to stay with the GX8, partly because of the GX8's 20mp sensor (I crop from time to time), and also because I would be giving up the 12-bit eshutter in the GX8 if I switched to the G85.
Thank You for Your effort Joseph !
I do not understand why Panasonic is so shy about telling users the truth.
It is exactly the same story like with bloody company Nikon :))
Secrets, secrets......
I've reached out again, to someone else this time. Trying to get a 100% accurate answer from Panasonic.
Well, I am confused about that matter :(
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4006745
any news on that? Does the gx85/80 has the 10-bit e-shutter?
+Camera Junkie I was told by Panasonic that all cameras GX8 and later dropped the 10-bit e-shutter. What info do you have that states otherwise?
Just a query, @8:28 - Shouldn't that have been shutter opens, flash fires, shutter closes? Isn't this the reason for having a maximum sync speed?
Or, are you speaking of another mode entirely?

I actually caught part of this live - then I got called away...
+Graham Gott Yes… you're right. I need to correct that in today's video.
electronic shutter can give undesireble effect with fluorescent and led lighting
+tom kent ES doesn't work with flash
Best to limit ES shooting to flash or daylight situations.
+Thomas Emmerich I'll address this today
Yup, that's exactly what I was referring to
The undesirable effect is horizontal banding (well, vertical banding in portrait mode). Or at least that's one of them. I experienced it in a recording studio where I used the electronic shutter to avoid interrupting the audio recording. But most of my photos had ugly banding. The room was lit with fluorescent lights. At shutter speeds between 1/80 and 1/160 it was the worst. 1/60 and below was not bad. I didn't see any banding at 1/20. Due to dim lighting I didn't have any shutter speeds higher than 1/160 so I don't know if the banding gets better at higher speeds - or worse.
FWIW, I usually use electronic shutter w/ my GH4 unless shooting w/ strobes.
Works fine...if I need a bit more DR, I switch to mechanical. It's a nice stills cameras even if people usually don't use it that way ;-)
I keep hoping they get strobes working w/ e-shutter...
The mechanical shutter moves much faster than the electronic shutter. With electronic shutter you can expose each pixel for a very short time but not all at the same time. The exposure and the readout moves relatively slow over the area of the sensor. With mechanical shutter, the sensor is set to a longer exposure when the shutter is closed. Then the shutter movers very fast over the area and after this the readout takes place with the slower speed. The pixels are exposed not exactly at the same time but there is much less rolling shutter than with e-shutter.

Some older cameras, like my Nikon D70 had a CCD-sensor. With this sensor, it is possible to set all pixels to open for exposure and after some time to stop gathering photons at the same time. Only after the exposure has stopped for all pixels, the load can be measured pixel by pixel. The D70 used the electronic shutter for all shorter exposures internally. Today CCD-sensors are used in most industrial cameras because they are used to do things like recognize parts on a fast moving production line. You can't have rolling shutter effects in such applications.

CCD-sensors have some disadvantages over today's CMOS-sensors. In the future it might be possible to build sensors that are as good as the CMOS-sensors but have an global shutter that exposes all pixels at the same time.
i like your videos, but their is no way I'm going to wake up at 9 to watch it live..Im sorry ;)
+Kirby Winson Hehe fair enough. I can't be live at a reasonable time in all time zones :-)
Thanks for answering Jospeh ;-)
The mechanical shutter introduces distortions (rolling shutter effects) at high shutter speeds as well! At high speed the mechanical shutter does not fully open and forms a slit that "scans" from top to bottom. This introduces very similar effects as electronic rolling shutter. The difference between mechanical and electronic shutter is in the degree of distortion.
The flash sync speed is usually the fasted shutter speeds at which the shutter opens completely (e.g. 1/125 of a second) . Only shutter speeds that are slower or equal to the flash sync speed prevent rolling shutter effects completely (using the mechanical shutter).
For examples see: http://www.thedowntowncreative.com/blog/2014/12/23/mechanical-vs-electronic-shutter-high-speed-results
I forgot to say it at the end of the show, but could you guys please give this vid a thumbs-up (or a thumbs down if you prefer…though, I would love to know why and would appreciate the feedback).
I'd buy the GH5 but I'm biased. The GH4 was used often on film sets; the GH5 will be used even more. A lot more, frankly. I'm not very familiar with the A6500 and I don't do comparisons. I'm sure you'll get lots of opinions here though ;-)
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