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Update Metadata from Original #1
David  Moore's picture
by David Moore
April 16, 2014 - 8:29am

Can any one prove this to be working or not working.   

 

I opened a new library and imported an image, psd,  with multiple layers but no masks or or alpha Channels.  The file in the inspector window was 475 MB.  Then went to Show in Finder  and double clicked on it to open in PS.  From there I collapsed all layers of the 16 bit file saved and closed it.  Going back to AP and looking in the Info inspector I find the file is still 475 MB.  I go to the Metadata drop down and click on Update from Original which I hoped would re scan the files file size.  But it does not.  When I look at the finder at that file it is being reported correctly at 126.2 MB.     Is that a bug??  Do I have to do a Repair and Rebuild to fix that?      Im talking with AP customer service now and will let you know.   Anyone experience this?  David

davidbmoore@mac.com
Twitter= @davidbmoore
Scottsdale AZ

David  Moore's picture
by David Moore
April 21, 2014 - 12:33pm

AP support got back to me and told me I can’t do the collapse of layers in PS and get a correct file size to be updated.  I know that I should round trip through AP but I do not want another image duplicated.  I guess I could and then delete the original but that seems wrong.

I have gotten some success by exporting a project and reimporting to fix the file Size.

Bottom line is “Update Metadata from Original does not re read File size”  I wish it Did! Seems like it should re-read All Metadata…not sure what else it does not refresh.

 

David

davidbmoore@mac.com
Twitter= @davidbmoore
Scottsdale AZ

Chris Biele's picture
by Chris Biele
April 23, 2014 - 4:52am

Hi David, when you open an image which has already been edited in an external editor (e.g. .psd or .tiff) Aperture will not create a duplicate of this image. It will open the existing file.

Note: if you have already made edits in Aperture to the ‘round tripped’ file (e.g. open image in PS -> edit in PS -> save -> apply effect in Aperture) then these edits will NOT appear on the image in Photoshop. You can easily see this by opening an image in PS, saving it, massively cropping the ‘round tripped’ file and then opening it again in PS. This is important to know especially when using the clone tool!

And yes, as a general rule you should not touch any original files which are referenced in your Aperture library as Aperture will not see the changes.

David  Moore's picture
by David Moore
April 23, 2014 - 8:02am

Thanks Chris for responding.  My work flow is a little strange cuz I have to use PS to create layers with masks and blending modes.  Images that require this are exported out of AP work on in PS and re named there.  Then reimported into the project they came from with that new name and all the Layers attached.  I know that Masks are a No No in AP but I have to have them for a while till the client is pleased then I can collapse them.

“when you open an image which has already been edited in an external editor (e.g. .psd or .tiff) Aperture will not create a duplicate of this image. It will open the existing file.”

That part confuses me.    When I take a Referenced Image while in AP  and want to edit it in PS via Edit with External editor I do get a duplicate image.  This is my problem.  I need to get to the original and collapse all layers.  But AP creates a dup that I can work on so that I can’t touch the original unless I open it without round-tripping.

Chris you have help me a lot with thinking this out loud and realizing that I need to delay reimporting client work back to AP till I am sure that no further changes are needed.  This would solve the problem of having Masks in PS.  Its just that Ill have to get use to the idea that my Lib is  2-3 months behind my work.    Thank you for your help

davidbmoore@mac.com
Twitter= @davidbmoore
Scottsdale AZ

Chris Biele's picture
by Chris Biele
April 23, 2014 - 8:58am

Hi David, this seems like odd behaviour to me. I don’t get duplicate versions when I open images in PS via Aperture.

Can you check that you have PS set as your external editor in preferences? Go to Aperture -> Preferences -> Export and click on Choose next to External Photo Editor.

To open an image in your chosen external editor you can either right click or use key command Cmd+Shift+O (letter o).

If you use referenced images Aperture will create the new TIFF or PSD in the same referenced folder as the original. You can set 8bit or 16bit TIFF or PSD within the Export preferences pane.

You are now free to edit the image however you like within PS, including adding layers, masks, filters, adjustments and anything else. Saving the image will just save that file directly where it sits, either within your managed library or within the referenced image folder. If you use PSD the image will save as is. If you use TIFF then PS will ask you what type of compression you want to use on the file. I personally choose None.

When the image is saved in PS, Aperture will update the version preview of the original TIFF or PSD. You can make any edits to this preview which you can preview within Aperture. These edits will be applied upon export of the version (not the original) from Aperture.

You can reopen the same TIFF or PSD in PS from within Aperture and it will open the existing original file, including all layers etc. You can flatten the image or do anything else to the image and upon saving in PS the version preview will be updated in Aperture.

The only thing I can think of is that your external editor may not be set in Prefs, so it’s creating a duplicate original.

Note: if you open a ‘round tripped’ file with a plugin, like Color Efex or Vivesa, from within Aperture it will not create a duplicate. This will flatten your image and you will lose all layers which is a total PITA if you had some stuff you wanted to save! The best option is to use the plugins directly in PS, or if it’s an Aperture only plugin then the workaround is to duplicate the version of your TIFF or PSD (Alt+V) and edit that with the plugin. If you need to integrate this later into your original TIFF / PSD you can open both files and do a copy paste within PS.

Anyway, keeping your images totally stored and updated in Aperture is definitely possible, so you shouldn’t have to worry about keeping an out-of-date library.

Hope that helps!

-C

David  Moore's picture
by David Moore
April 23, 2014 - 10:33am

Can you check that you have PS set as your external editor in preferences? Go to Aperture -> Preferences -> Export and click on Choose next to External Photo Editor.

I have Photoshop cc  to edit externally

 

To open an image in your chosen external editor you can either right click or use key command Cmd+Shift+O (letter o).

D:  Yes  or mouse to Photo and Edit …..

If you use referenced images Aperture will create the new TIFF or PSD in the same referenced folder as the original. You can set 8bit or 16bit TIFF or PSD within the Export preferences pane.

D: Correct!  It builds a Duplicate image in the same spot which I can edit.  But I need to edit the original. I need to collapse the original not the duplicate

You are now free to edit the image however you like within PS, including adding layers, masks, filters, adjustments and anything else. Saving the image will just save that file directly where it sits, either within your managed library or within the referenced image folder. If you use PSD the image will save as is. If you use TIFF then PS will ask you what type of compression you want to use on the file. I personally choose None.

D: Ok  But my goal is to edit the original not a duplicate.  If I Collaspe the original the File while Im in PS, the  size is not refreshed in AP Info Inspector. So my searches for file size are wrong.

 

When the image is saved in PS, Aperture will update the version preview of the original TIFF or PSD. You can make any edits to this preview which you can preview within Aperture. These edits will be applied upon export of the version (not the original) from Aperture.

D:  I agree

You can reopen the same TIFF or PSD in PS from within Aperture and it will open the existing original file, including all layers etc. You can flatten the image or do anything else to the image and upon saving in PS the version preview will be updated in Aperture.

D:  Do you mean.   You can reopen the Image with the badge indicating an external Edit, tif or PSD, in PS fr  AP via Edit w PhotoEditor?   If so I agree, but my original file is still there with Layers.  I need to collapse the original so Vaults and (Fix Permissions, Repair DB, and rebuild Database) flow without hangs stalls and or crashes.  OOPS   Probably should of mentioned that earlier, sorry.  

The only thing I can think of is that your external editor may not be set in Prefs, so it’s creating a duplicate original.

D:  Its set properly unless there is an other option I have missed.  Versions is set to not make duplicates, but that does not apply here.

D:  Any other suggestions is welcome and don’t feel bad  pointing out my misunderstanding,  its all good dialogue.  Thanks for helping me think this out.

davidbmoore@mac.com
Twitter= @davidbmoore
Scottsdale AZ

Chris Biele's picture
by Chris Biele
April 23, 2014 - 3:51pm

If you use referenced images Aperture will create the new TIFF or PSD in the same referenced folder as the original. You can set 8bit or 16bit TIFF or PSD within the Export preferences pane.

D: Correct!  It builds a Duplicate image in the same spot which I can edit.  But I need to edit the original. I need to collapse the original not the duplicate

Ok, this is where I’m confused… Here’s how it works for me:

My original image is a NEF (Nikon RAW). When I open the NEF in Photoshop a new TIFF is created. I edit, save and close that file in PhotoShop and all edits are reflected in Aperture. I then open that same file in PhotoShop from within Aperture (Cmd+Shift+O) not from Finder, and the original TIFF with layers an all opens in PhotoShop. Any changes I make to the TIFF are reflected in the Aperture library.

I just tested this with a 300MB TIFF that had multiple layers. I selected the file in Aperture, opened in PS, flattened the image, saved and quit PS. Aperture did still show the image as 300mb, but only until I deselected and then selected the image again. It now shows the correct size of 57.4MB.

D: Ok  But my goal is to edit the original not a duplicate.  If I Collaspe the original the File while Im in PS, the  size is not refreshed in AP Info Inspector. So my searches for file size are wrong.

Try collapsing the file in PS, saving and then deselecting and reselecting the image in Aperture.

D:  Do you mean.   You can reopen the Image with the badge indicating an external Edit, tif or PSD, in PS fr  AP via Edit w PhotoEditor? 

Yes

If so I agree, but my original file is still there with Layers.

Which is to be expected, no?

I need to collapse the original so Vaults and (Fix Permissions, Repair DB, and rebuild Database) flow without hangs stalls and or crashes.

Having layered TIFFs and PSDs in your library should not affect your Vaults or the health of your library in any way. You shouldn’t have to rebuild your library at all, and if you follow these steps, and don’t touch the files directly in Finder then all sizes and other changes to the file will reflect in Aperture correctly.

Give it a try with any image and let me know how it goes.

CB

David  Moore's picture
by David Moore
April 23, 2014 - 4:40pm

My original image is a NEF (Nikon RAW). When I open the NEF in Photoshop a new TIFF is created. I edit, save and close that file in PhotoShop and all edits are reflected in Aperture. I then open that same file in PhotoShop from within Aperture (Cmd+Shift+O) not from Finder, and the original TIFF with layers an all opens in PhotoShop. Any changes I make to the TIFF are reflected in the Aperture library.

DBM   Thats how it works for my Canon CR2 files

 

I just tested this with a 300MB TIFF that had multiple layers. I selected the file in Aperture, opened in PS, flattened the image, saved and quit PS. Aperture did still show the image as 300mb, but only until I deselected and then selected the image again. It now shows the correct size of 57.4MB.

DBM  Thats where we differ … Lucky for you!  Mine does not change but I have gotten some to fix them selves after I do a Fix Repair and Rebuild.   I have a couple that do not go back to the new smaller size.

 

D: Ok  But my goal is to edit the original not a duplicate.  If I Collaspe the original the File while Im in PS, the  size is not refreshed in AP Info Inspector. So my searches for file size are wrong.

Try collapsing the file in PS, saving and then deselecting and reselecting the image in Aperture.

DBM      I have,   and have couple images that are stuck at their old large size.

D:  Do you mean.   You can reopen the Image with the badge indicating an external Edit, tif or PSD, in PS fr  AP via Edit w PhotoEditor? 

Yes

If so I agree, but my original file is still there with Layers.

Ok here is new information.   When I export some of my .cr2 files  I combine them into one file giving it a new name and reimporting into the AP project.  This image is large with layers and I call it an original cause its the first time in AP.  Now its that file I would like to collapse but if I round trip I get a dup of that.  So to ovoid the dupe I use finder and open in PS and collapse it.  

Which is to be expected, no?

I need to collapse the original so Vaults and (Fix Permissions, Repair DB, and rebuild Database) flow without hangs stalls and or crashes.

Having layered TIFFs and PSDs in your library should not affect your Vaults or the health of your library in any way. You shouldn’t have to rebuild your library at all, and if you follow these steps, and don’t touch the files directly in Finder then all sizes and other changes to the file will reflect in Aperture correctly.

DBM   In Your layered 300mb file did you have masks in them?  Do you have any Knock outs with Transparent Backgrounds?  I do and Everyone I talk to says Ap is not designed to work with those items.  Not recommended for the Database.  I have had them for 6-7 years and occasionally have problems with previews n Thumbnails till I get rid of the Masks.  Now when I watch the Activity monitor and see 100+ hangs while Updating the Vault… all I think of are those damn Masks.  So Im going through all 6-7 years for files looking for large files (cuz they most likely have layers n masks) and collapsing them at the source.  I have been on with AP support but they gave me the quick answer that its the Masks and the fact of collapsing files from finder is not recommend.  Tried to convince them that Update Metadata from Original should check the file size and update if necessary.  Not sure if they heard me… did put in a feature request for that very simple change.

I  Really appreciate your time with my weird workflow.   I can’t give up PS its too important for my work, so weird workflow Im stuck with.  Hope that you never have DB problems with your layers. 

Cheers

Always learning,  David

ps  any way to make my text here have a color?  Ill try Italicized or Bold  next time

davidbmoore@mac.com
Twitter= @davidbmoore
Scottsdale AZ

Chris Biele's picture
by Chris Biele
April 24, 2014 - 2:05am

Ok, I finally am on the same page! Sorry for getting so detailed there, but just had to cover all bases…

MASKS: yes, I have seen this problem with previews appearing as white or black when I have saved a mask as a channel. The only way I have figured out how to fix this is to remove the channel mask and store it as a layer mask. Have you tried this? Let me know if you need clarification on what I mean.

KNOCKOUTS: I have never actually used knockouts, but thanks for bringing them up as I just learned something new! I did just try one with a transparent background and the preview appeared fine in AP, but that’s not really a thorough test.

I’d recommend avoiding channel masks at all possible costs. This means you can’t load a selection from the Select menu, but if you have the mask applied on a layer you can always Cmd+Click that mask and it will load the selection. You might find only the channel masks were a problem and the knockouts will work fine from now on?

As for force updating metadata… not sure… maybe try Relocate Original to move it out of the original folder and then back in.

Hope that helps! - C

David  Moore's picture
by David Moore
April 24, 2014 - 7:09am

In Ps if you save a Layer Mask its stored with the Channels which is the worst place for AP. The second worst place in just left on the layer, and not sure but the third thing to worry about is saved Paths in the Paths Tab.   These are funny pests.  10 or twenty may not foul up the Lib right away but at some point the lib is acting funny.  This time I had problems with smart folders but I have gotten 200 of the pests and its running better.

Great Idea about moving the image in and out of the reference lib.  Just tried but no joy. I know if I export it out then delete it from the library and reimport it will be fixed.  Which is why I need Update Metadata from Original to work on file size.

Thanks Chris for thinking with me.

davidbmoore@mac.com
Twitter= @davidbmoore
Scottsdale AZ

Chris Biele's picture
by Chris Biele
April 26, 2014 - 9:39am

Funnily enough I just had an unsupported file type error with a TIFF with a few layers and a text layer. Haven’t had one of them in ages!

David  Moore's picture
by David Moore
April 26, 2014 - 9:56am

Haven’t you heard,   “Misery loves Company”

Followed you on Twitter see you there sometime.

 

davidbmoore@mac.com
Twitter= @davidbmoore
Scottsdale AZ

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